00:22 CJ: Welcome once again to the Savvy Musician Show. This is CJ Ortiz, I’m the branding and mindset coach here at the Savvy Musician Academy. Once again, always delighted, I’m the honourable one who gets to sit across from the lovely Leah McHenry. How are you?

00:39 Leah: Doing really good, thank you.

00:41 CJ: I say, always a pleasure but I actually see her a lot more often than you might think, we normally just get together for a podcast but this is a good time for us because we can spell out for all of you interested listeners, all the wonderful intricate details about music marketing which is becoming more and more a popular thing. Leah, I see more and more people offering or trying to offer something somewhat similar and I’m just – 

Call me biased but I still think SMA is the most extensive, comprehensive, in-depth, multi-level, four-level chess version of music marketing, am I wrong?

01:21 Leah: I have to agree. I mean, not just because I’m the creator of it but I think, you know, the more I see out there and, in a sense, I always say, this is a good thing. The good thing is there are more people out there trying to help musicians. Or what it tells me is that musicians are waking up and that there’s a demand for knowledge, there’s a demand for levelling up and we are accomplishing the very thing we’re trying to do, which is helping people gain an awareness and understanding of what they’re capable of in today’s music industry, without labels.

In a way, it really tells me this is a very good thing. Unfortunately, you know, you have to use a lot of discernment when you’re – pick and choose who you’re learning from. I always say, choose somebody that you want to emulate, who inspires you, who speaks to you, that resonates with you. I don’t resonate with everybody, that’s totally fine, you’ve got to choose somebody who you do resonate with. But choose somebody who is doing what you want to do because they’ll know firsthand how to do it.

If you want to be like me, you know, learn to at least have control over your career, like when you want to release something, when or if you want a tour. So that’s never an issue for me. I just do what I want, when I want to. Often, I’m sometimes too ambitious for my own good but I’m still the one at the end of the day making the decisions and you can’t ask for anything better than that. 

02:52 CJ: No. Let me say this though, granted, a biased source here, however, let me say this though, I’ve been 30 years in design, marketing, advertising, communications, et cetera, this has been my whole adult life. I’ve seen it all. I’ve seen the advent of the internet, I’ve seen every industry change, and be impacted by new technology, et cetera. I have seen now up close, for a few years, all the different marketing offers out there for music.

I will say this, when I look at a lot of what you would consider to be Leah’s competition, it’s usually focused on a few things, it might be focused on Spotify listening, get your Spotify listening up, or it may be focused on being on YouTube, or it may be focused on getting more tickets sold at your event, what have you.

None of it is really comprehensive. When you’re talking about a total system for anybody in any of those situations. Something interesting you said to me just the other day was, you went to go speak at a private event, a high-ticket private event where there was a world-class vocalist in attendance and these are people who are on the shows, right? They’re on the Big Voice competition.

And, you did your basic presentation that you’ve done on Webinar for everybody online and you were taken aback by how many of them were just furiously taking notes because they weren’t doing anything like this. That’s how much this is not understood. People like that who don’t really understand and I’m talking to the people who are listening, then it’s going to be hard for them to be discerning at times because they don’t necessarily know what they should be looking for.

Which is what I appreciate about us doing the weekly podcast is because we get the opportunity to present in volume fashion, all of the elements that are involved. If you just look through that current archives of podcast now, look at how many different topics are being covered and we’re covering another one in a different way today but all to say is Savvy Musician Academy for me, with the trained eyes that I’m looking through, is the most comprehensive thing that I’ve ever seen.

Not just in relation to music marketing but marketing in general, which is why I’ve linked arms with you Leah and your team and well, I am a part of your team, let’s just say it that way. That’s why I got on board so for those who are listening, yeah.

05:31 Leah: It’s interesting too. I never, you know, when I started Savvy Musician Academy, I didn’t realize that you could do something other than comprehensive. To me, it was like – it probably has a thing to do with my world view, you know? That it has to touch on everything, you know? How you do one thing is how you do everything and if you don’t touch on these other things and it’s incomplete and not going to be effective.

For me, it has to, you know, you can’t talk about building a fan base without addressing your niche and your brand and your image and all these other things. We can’t talk about a Facebook ad without talking about the core of who you are as an artist and your background and who your fans are and getting into their head.

It has to be comprehensive or it won’t be effective. If it’s not comprehensive, it’s a silly tactic and nothing more. And it will change next week.

06:25 CJ: Well, that’s a big thing, that is a really big thing and I’ll mention more about the Savvy Musician Inner Circle, for those of you who don’t know about it, it’s the new newsletter that was just launched. But the gist of it is, is that in this newsletter now which is subscription-based, we’re putting out all the information, the up to date information, on everything that’s changing in technology, in marketing, in social media, that relates to musicians and artists and creators.

Because it’s always changing. You don’t want to put all your eggs in one basket, I’ve seen some of these other music marketing and they’re only about YouTube. You look at their Facebook page and it doesn’t have the engagement. They’re not teaching about email. That means the whole premise is, they’re showing you how to build something on someone else’s real estate.

You don’t own anything yourself as a musician and so, that’s why guys, I recommend what Leah does because she’s all about really helping you build your empire and protecting that.

07:28 Leah: There’s just something that even happened yesterday. I got tagged in a random thread in a Click Funnel’s Facebook group and like I don’t even ever go in there. I’ve had a click funnels account in the past and have been experimenting with different software, anyways, for some reason I got tagged.

Someone had asked, “Hey, does anybody here use click funnels to market their music and build their email list?” Everybody started going, “You should follow this person, you should follow this person” and some of them are colleagues of mine or competitors or whatever you want to call them. They started listening to all these people and people said, “Wait a minute, why are you assuming this person is asking about who he wants to learn from as marketers?” I said, “Well, are you trying to market your own music or are you trying to market teaching?”

Then it was something completely different. I was like, “First of all, don’t assume,” right? “Ask this person what they’re actually asking.” It was like, “No, I want to market my client’s music.” Okay, first of all, everybody’s going on “Yeah, so and so, these other people, they’re all Click Funnels” and I said, “Well, since you tagged me, what I’ll tell you is that I do not use click funnels and it’s not great for music marketing and here’s why…”

If you’re serious about marketing music and selling volume at any rate with physical or digital, Click Funnels doesn’t play nice with Shopify. It’s extremely difficult and clunky and doesn’t really work well at all. I know because I’ve tried this. For that reason – and Shopify absolutely has to be a must. If you have any success online with selling physical merchandise, Shopify is a must.

That just goes to show, all these other people who they may love a certain piece of software or something, but I don’t know how people are actually going to tell the truth about some of these things.

09:16 CJ: Well, I mean, it’s comparable because it shows that people don’t understand how comprehensive something needs to be. That you can’t have one thing, somebody may not think that the integration between Shopify and click funnels is an important thing because you’re not even thinking about merchandise for example.

Whereas that’s the beauty of SMA, the Savvy Musician Academy is that we’re talking about everything from Spotify to Shopify, you know? It’s about the integration and it’s about, you know, you recommend certain software in that for email and for this and for that because you’ve tried everything, you’ve experienced the problems, et cetera.

Then, you constantly keep everybody up to date with the latest changes, you’ll come in do a video show, “Hey, this particular software added this feature, this is going to be important for you to understand so here’s my screen, let me show you what I’m going.”

You are constantly updated with the very latest and we go into in our elite group, into so much about psychographics and copywriting and I mean, the hardcore principles of direct marketing. We’re not relying upon a funnel software. It’s not getting the right software that makes this work. It’s sales, this is sales, you know?

10:33 Leah: I mean, that drives me nuts too when people think that it’s the tool or the software and that that’s the magic pill for success. None of it matters. I mean, really, if you had none of it, the question is, can you sell anything? Do you know how to sell anything? Then it doesn’t matter, you can make anything work. I think it disturbed me when I’m seeing like all these people thinking that click funnels is going to really work when I’m like, you haven’t even thought so far as to like how you’re going to sell volume of merchandise.

You’re not thinking about e-commerce. Yes, you can sell physical things through click funnels. Some people have had tremendous success but we’re dealing with an e-commerce society and they expect a certain experience. I think also, I will just say, in case anybody is wondering if I like Click Funnels. No.

I mean, I think there’s some great people and great teaching that has come through that. But Facebook doesn’t like click funnels, if you use click funnels as your landing page software, it’s pretty well known that they’re like, I don’t know if you want to call it like ghosted or black-listed or whatever but your ads will be more expensive. Also, the speed load – 

11:44 CJ: The load time?

11:44 Leah: Yeah, the load speed of click funnels pages is too slow and Facebook is now penalizing. When you send traffic to a page that doesn’t load lightning speed fast, you will be penalized for that. They will lower your reach, or your ad cost will go up, things like that. For those reasons, Shopify remains the best, it is the fastest for sending any kind of traffic there for people to buy stuff. I just want to get that out of my system.

12:12 CJ: No, I think that’s really important and you know, again, first of all, at the ground level, Leah is going to teach you how to sell physical products so it’s not simply digital downloads or a CD or vinyl. It’s getting into the depths of how to get the right design for your shirt, what to put on shirts, what other kinds of products can you potentially sell.

The whole dropshipping print-on-demand aspect of things. It gets into integrating these things with email providers and like Leah said, something as simple as knowing that your particular software you’re using over here for a funnel system is being penalized by Facebook.

This is the kind of information that’s shared all the time, within the Savvy Musician, especially the elite group. We talk about these things because they’re all pertinent and relevant. Somebody can sit there and think, Leah, “Hey, I’m an artist, not a marketer,” you know?

13:15 Leah: You are always marketing. You’re either doing a good job or a bad job but you’re always marketing.

13:19 CJ: Yeah, you’re always marketing and so the point here with something like SMA is again, it’s comprehensive. So in other words, it’s totalism. We leave no stone unturned when it comes to what’s important for you. Even if for example, you’re not wanting to do what Leah does, which is you know, the stay at home mom who is not necessarily touring right now. You know, you can even just make a revenue from selling your music and merchandise online.

You can still use every bit of what Leah teaches in her courses to get people out to events, anything you need to sell, any message you need to get out there is covered in the Savvy Musician Academy. 

But for me, I really believe that, and I’ve said this before, that this is probably the most important thing and not just for musicians as we said before, for artist of all kinds, creators, authors, you name it. I mean, you could literally be an author or some sort of other creator and be a part of the Savvy Musician Academy and be light-years ahead in your own industry. Just because the principles apply.

14:35 Leah: Yeah, that’s the thing is we built the programs, not off of the music industry. We built the programs off of what works online in any business. It’s just business and marketing principles. I mean, that’s how I had any success at all was the very beginning word got into my story, maybe in this part two but I stopped studying the music industry.

The only reason I had any success is because I stopped studying that and I started studying business and marketing, online marketing, with what’s working for anybody online. I was desperate so let me just try that. It was very weird, very awkward to try to apply it because I had to – this is weird, I’m not selling socks or paint or something that people need, you know? Sticks or sleep apnea, this is not a need, this is how art – and how do I make people need – 

Where are the pain points in trying to sell music, you know? Everyone’s saying you have to press into a pain point. I don’t know how this solves pain? This is weird. I don’t know what to do. It was a very awkward transition. I was so worried about being sales-y, I was so worried about turning people off, I didn’t want to bother people, worry about emailing them too often.

All those things that every person, not just artist, every person when you’re building business goes through that phase, where they’re just not like sure where the boundaries are, how much is too much, what’s too little and how do I get the messaging right, you know, you have to find your voice online because if you have your own personality and like how much of that do I show? I feel very exposed.

There’s so many elements to having an online presence with your fans and just getting used to being in the public eye but for the whole world rather than just for 30 people at a gig, it was just so awkward. However, when I did manage to bridge that gap, I mean, that’s where everything really changed for me. I just started applying things even if they felt weird and uncomfortable and not even like, it quite fit for music. I still did it. 

That’s where all my success came from the beginning, that’s where I made you know, my first $30,000, $50,000 and then $100,000 in a year, was from applying awkward business principles that I didn’t know how they would fit in music. You have to understand, I guess like we’ve said before, it’s in my DNA to teach and be able to take principles that maybe even abstract at times and put them into extremely practical steps because maybe I have kids and I’ve homeschooled and I don’t know, not everybody’s cut out for that but I’ve been able to figure out how to teach it to thousands of people and they’re able – that’s probably the number one thing I hear from them is they love my teaching style and that it was easy to follow, easy to implement and then I taught what was important and I gave them all the things they needed but without the fluff. 

I don’t like wasting time, I don’t like other people wasting time and I know that our attention spans are short. I like to get to the point on things. All that just to say that our program, Savvy Musician Academy, it’s all built on what works in digital marketing and what works in business and the timeless principles. Yes, tactics change, platforms change, algorithms change and that’s what our Savvy Musician Inner Circle is for, those are addressing those things. 

So whether you’re a student or not. Even if you’re an advanced student or you’re at the beginning, you’ve never built a fan base, everybody needs to be consuming that continent, everybody needs to because that is where we are addressing that but regardless of that, we are very much of principle-based company. When I come out with my book, so I am going to seed that right now, when I come out with my book that I wrote a while back that is a book that I want to stay on your shelf that stays relevant for the next 20, 30 years, something that you can go back to that becomes a classic, that is not based on the current algorithms because I’d have to write a new book every year. 

So that is why I think we have grown and why we have so many students from around the world is because they can actually take these principles and apply it into other businesses. We actually hear about it all the time where we have people who are either personal trainers, hairstylists, other people who have other day jobs and they’re like, “I didn’t expect to come out of this with a marketing degree but that’s what I feel like I got here.” 

“I feel like I went to school without going to school except I actually learned something that was relevant.” I also heard a statistic that in today’s modern colleges, by year three after they have come out with a course that information is now obsolete. So that’s the other benefit of going to an online program or academy. Of course, it is a fraction of the price of what you pay for college courses and university courses and it is always going to be up to date. 

We always update it every year as often as needed. So, I just think that is what an amazing time we live in that you guys have the privilege of being able to have access to that kind of thing. 

19:30 CJ: Yes, they are in a very fortunate position because you have gone through a lot of this and purged as you said of the fluff and got things narrowed down to what’s relevant, what works, what’s the most timely. But because again it’s so comprehensive than you are learning so much, which again makes the point that somebody can go out, whether they’re a hairdresser or a trainer or something, and apply the very same principles, have the very same software, same approach, same copyrighting. 

All of that stuff, learn all of this and be able to experience the same sort of quick turnarounds, have the same sort of revenue goals that anybody else would have. To me, again, and to be able to do this from the comfort of your own home as they say, to be able to do that and take courses like this. Again, what is so important to contrast you again with these other online marketers is that you have not isolated this down to one thing. It is not YouTube views, you know hoping – 

20:40 Leah: You can only get this many subscribers. 

20:43 CJ: Yeah talk to all – I mean I see them all the time now, all the guys and gals, YouTube influencers who helped build YouTube, are now ranting and raving because YouTube changed the rules now. A lot of them got deplatformed because some of them were political and they’re crushed. Hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of ad revenue they were getting, gone overnight. I mean absolutely gone overnight. 

Others, because what YouTube is doing now, YouTube is now making all their rankings for all the major news networks and Disney and all of that sort of thing. So all the high subscriber, high view YouTube influencers, they’re way down. So they don’t show up on the suggestions anymore. They don’t show up on the rankings anymore. So it is crushing them. So now they’re running for Patreon accounts and Bitcoin accounts and “Hey share this video because YouTube has taken us away,” well yeah. 

So why would you want to take a music marketing course that’s all about building YouTube views, right? And besides that, how are you going – great, you got a million views on YouTube, who knows what revenue you’re going to get out of that A, and then B, with what we teach in the elite course and even on Online Musician is when you got Facebook pixels running on the landing pages for people who are watching your video on your site, or watching even your video on Facebook you are getting all of that information. 

All of those people that you can retarget later. I don’t know how anybody with a million views on YouTube is retargeting a million people. You might as well have nobody viewing your video. You get a million views on a Facebook video and Facebook will keep all of those people who watched your video, will keep a record of them and you will be able to literally create a list that you can then send ads or more content to bring them to your page, get them on your email list and now you own your own empire. That’s the difference. 

22:44 Leah: Oh yeah and I mean I think YouTube and Google they are trying to now copy things that Facebook has done because it obviously works very well but it is such a pain in the butt, believe me. I always have to tell our students, “Listen, if it is not in the course don’t do it” I didn’t put it in there for a very specific reason not because I am trying to withhold anything from you. I am the first person that wants your success, believe me, I want to see your success story. 

I want to plaster you all over the internet about how amazing you have done and what you have accomplished. If I didn’t put it in there it is for a very good reason. You need to trust me as your mother. Eat your vegetables, listen. You know I didn’t put it in there for a reason and it is to protect you from wasting time or money or effort that is not that productive. So if you have – unless you have an unlimited budget don’t be spending it on YouTube. Don’t be trying to do it. 

They’re trying to do the whole custom audience thing like Facebook, but it is not even comparable. It is a beast and we don’t even use it all in SMA for a reason, not that we won’t experiment and if things change guys, we update things. But as of right now, you don’t even need to be there. 

So I don’t know how, you know that is a good point. I didn’t think about other people in the space teaching this stuff that are very platform-centric, where it’s just like “Master this one thing.” Whereas I see it like if you are going to have long term success, you need to learn how to market. Just learn how to market and then platforms will come and go but then you will never be taken aback by it. 

You are not going to be like – you know like MySpace. Once upon a time MySpace was the Facebook and people had millions of followers and it was the YouTube, it was everything and then what happened there? It just went, poof, it was gone. People are never able to contact their followers. They lost everything. So don’t make the same mistake with Facebook or YouTube or anything. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket. 

The best asset that you can ever build is your email list because you control that. No one can take that away and you can create audiences, lookalike audiences from it. You can do all kinds of really ninja stuff with it, but the bottom line is that if it all went away tomorrow, I could still make a living from my email list, hands down. 

25:00 CJ: That’s the key. I mean you can find a good says person, right? A good salesperson and you look at their job history and they’ve been with several companies over their career because that is what salespeople do. They are just going to go sell this, they’re going to go sell that but because they are good sales people, they will never ever, ever be without a job. They will never be begging for money because they know how to sell and every company needs someone who can sell. 

Which you’re going to learn and what we talk about is how to be a marketer, how to be a promoter of your particular brand. Now more than just – we are not talking about being the used car salesman. Nothing like that, we are talking about the full scope and dimensions of sales is going to be everything from subtle to straight on. You are going to learn all of that sort of stuff. 

The point is, is that you’ll finally take your music into that business level. You will finally see yourself as a music business and not just an artist trying to get somebody to come save them, trying to get somebody to come find them, hoping a video or song will go viral or maybe a record label will pick them up or maybe Band Camp will do it for them or maybe Bandzoogle will do that for them or whatever. Maybe they will get enough Spotify views. No, you will be able to target your ideal fans. People who already like your kind of music. 

You are going to be able to build a social media following but not just to have those metrics, vanity metrics, but to be able to like Leah just said, to take those people and get them onto your dedicated email list. Think about this, you know, I would rather have 10,000 radical super fans of my music on an email list than 10 million views on YouTube video because I can keep, like you said, as long as you have the need your email list, if all the platforms went away, you could continue to sell. 

Now it is not just having an email list, you got to know how to groom it, nurture it, you got to know how to build that relationship. You got to find your voice, you got to know your brand. We talk so much about branding and social media influencing. We are not just hardcore on the software or the marketing stuff, we get into everything. We get into Facebook groups, we get into building community, we get into studying culture, all of these things.

They are all a part of it, under this general big rubric we call marketing. Digital marketing. Let me tell you something like Leah said earlier this is the new era in which we live ladies and gentlemen. You think, “Well I heard Facebook, I heard email is dead” no, you can’t do anything without email. Everything is going, just as the fact that everything is now going to e-commerce. I said this to you recently Leah, where I’ve gone to the shopping mall that I’ve been to. A beautiful mall, it was a ghost town. Well, did people stop buying things? No, they’re just not going to physical stores that much anymore. So, you will see it even in the holidays this year, you’re probably going to be able to find a parking place at the mall.

28:19 Leah: That’s right. Let me tell you something. I am beginning to plan for Black Friday right now for August because of this e-commerce and the fourth quarter of the year is the biggest, it is the biggest quarter of the year for anybody selling anything online. I actually plan after we record this, I am going to be making a video for our elite students that I am posting in the Facebook group and I am going to be walking them through my whole Black Friday plan. 

What they need to be doing in the month of August, what they need to do in the month of September, in October, November, all the way up to December, to properly do this and make the most money they have ever made this year with their music because people have no idea. I mean that’s just the fact that that’s the way people are shopping now. 

29:05 CJ: Yeah and so you can’t do anything. You can’t buy anything on any commerce website especially Amazon, without having an email address period. If you want to keep up with your tracking information, they are going to be sending you emails. You book a flight they are going to tell you what email address you’d like to use. Everything is based on email ergo, how could email be dead? Email is very much alive, what’s dead is spam. 

29:40 Leah: Right or like grandma forwarding you the whatever, bunnies frolicking in the field that you used to get. So many forwards but that went to Facebook. That is what Facebook is for now, you know the cat memes and we get all of that there. But email is certainly not going away. It has certainly not died. It is a little more transactional than it was but people definitely newsletters are not dead at all like people – I mean my husband subscribes to financial newsletters that he reads them. 

You know if you sign up for markers you get a ton of emails from those people. I mean there is a lot of people getting newsletter and still reading them, engaging with them, especially other artists they care about. I read every email from artists that I love. If I get an email from them, I always open those. I think there is special relationships still that are interacting in the ways that maybe you are doubting but it is happening, and it couldn’t be more true than in the e-commerce setting. 

So the point is with all of this, learn how to be a good marketer and you will not be fazed by platforms and changes because this would be like, “Okay there’s a change” or this platform is not doing well I am going to go over here and I am going to learn how it works and because I got my brand in order, because I understand my culture and I found my voice. I know how to be my authentic self in a way that inspires people to want to support my art and I am confident in that. And I have no guilt whatsoever by saying the word by now or go to this link and purchase it.” And you have full confidence in that. 

Do you know how life changing that is? Do you know that when you can get to that place you not only can support yourself in your own music career – there is no reason why you couldn’t build something else on the side and do a million dollars because that is the power of these principles. It is the same thing. 

It is the same thing that Brent Cardone or any of these people out there, Tim Farris, they are all using the same principles to do what they do. So that’s why I say you need to think much bigger. You are still thinking small potatoes that guarantee that if you listen to this, you are thinking like, “Oh how do I make my next 100 dollars?” You need to think bigger than that. How do I make my next $100,000, $200,000?” That is where you need to go. 

32:05 CJ: Right financial security for you means becoming a good marketer, learn marketing and that is the best way to secure your future. Something will always need to be marketed and I want to just take this opportunity again as I said earlier, we have launched the Savvy Musician Inner Circle newsletter. I love this thing, Leah. You were just talking about how newsletters have not gone out of style. In fact, I am expecting it to become more and more in style. 

And so again, to help our listeners and those who are in our groups and classes to keep up with everything, the constant changes and to stay encouraged and to stay motivated, you have created the Savvy Musician Inner Circle newsletter and it is dedicated to these very things that we’ve been talking about. It is true, you know that not everybody can be in the elite group and maybe not everybody will buy the Online Musician Course or what have you. 

We understand that. We want you to get to that place where you can. We want you to start making money so that you can become a part of investing yourself. You have to always be investing in yourself but what I love about the Savvy Musician Inner Circle newsletter Leah, is that it is a subscription newsletter. So it is one issue a month and it is just $19.99, so I mean everybody can get that. Everybody can do that. 

33:27 Leah: You have no excuse. You have that laying in your couch somewhere. 

33:30 CJ: Yeah I do. 

33:32 Leah: Yeah, somewhere between the couch cushions or in a pocket in the washing machine. It is in there. 

33:38 CJ: You’ve got it. So I want everybody who is listening right now to stop what you are doing and I want you to go to savvymusicianacademy.com/innercircle and you can also go to the show notes to get the link there. I want you to go and check out, Leah did a walkthrough video taking you through our first issue. We just published our second one and getting ready to do the third issue here pretty soon. 

So Savvy Musician Inner Circle is your call to action for today. I want you to go again, check that out and subscribe today. Tell somebody else about it. In fact you can get your first month for just one dollar, right? 

34:19 Leah: Yes, you have no excuse. I expect to see you in there. I want to hear from you about what you thought about it because we’re always going to be working on it and improving it. This is something that I wish I had this resource, I really did. Even a few years ago, I wish there had been something that I could consume, not even in the marketing world could I find this. So this is amazing, go sign up. 

34:39 CJ: But for those of you who are listening also, please do us a favour and go and review this podcast. It always helps other people to find the podcast and helps us to keep high in the rankings. So go to your Spotify, Stitcher, iTunes, whatever you are listening on and leave a comment. Give us five stars, we appreciate that. 

Leah, once again always a pleasure. We will see you guys next time.